Did Japan win WWII?

[Cornfed]

This is the position taken by Douglas Dietrich (google him). It seemed incredible to me when I first heard it, but now it makes a certain amount of sense. A summary of the points made would be something like the following:

1. The Japs were not really defeated, since about 90% of their forces were based in China and largely intact. The Pacific War was a small side show.

2. The Axis powers had developed nuclear and, more importantly, biological weapons and the ability to deliver them to the US. Japan was therefore in a position to blackmail the US.

3. There was no surrender in 1945. There was a ceasefire agreement. A truce was signed in 1951.

4. So why was Japan occupied? Because when countries simply defeat the West, they almost always end up impoverished forever. The Japanese leadership didn't want that. They wanted America to occupy Japan in order to clean up the mess they made, and send them technology and natural resources for pennies on the dollar so they could get rich. In this they were of course spectacularly successful.

Interesting stuff. I don't have the expertise to really have an opinion on this, but it would explain a lot of things, such as most Jap war criminals never being punished and countries such as Australia and New Zealand supplying Japanese industry with natural resources for virtually nothing in return.

[Devil Dog]

Ridiculous theory, so I am sure it will gain plenty of traction on HA, the site where everything is a conspiracy.

[OutWest]

This is the position taken by Douglas Dietrich (google him). It seemed incredible to me when I first heard it, but now it makes a certain amount of sense. A summary of the points made would be something like the following:

1. The Japs were not really defeated, since about 90% of their forces were based in China and largely intact. The Pacific War was a small side show.

2. The Axis powers had developed nuclear and, more importantly, biological weapons and the ability to deliver them to the US. Japan was therefore in a position to blackmail the US.

3. There was no surrender in 1945. There was a ceasefire agreement. A truce was signed in 1951.

4. So why was Japan occupied? Because when countries simply defeat the West, they almost always end up impoverished forever. The Japanese leadership didn't want that. They wanted America to occupy Japan in order to clean up the mess they made, and send them technology and natural resources for pennies on the dollar so they could get rich. In this they were of course spectacularly successful.

Interesting stuff. I don't have the expertise to really have an opinion on this, but it would explain a lot of things, such as most Jap war criminals never being punished and countries such as Australia and New Zealand supplying Japanese industry with natural resources for virtually nothing in return.

Japans Navy was destroyed. It was unable to defend it's shores and was conquered and occupied. My father was there. The Pacific war was not some sideshow. LOL
90% of Japans forces were intact and in China? LOL What silliness. There were obliterated.
Very very few survivors returned to Japan. In Burma and South China alone, Japanese armies
totaling about 300,000 men were wiped out.

This is silliness that has no evidence in fact within Japan's or Chinese histories.
Japanese war criminals were never punished? LOL Read your history...a great many faced the gallows or firing squad...just not near enough.

A very short list..as covered by newspapers of the day...
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/resul ... r%20Crimes

No surrender...just a cease fire? What poppycock.

From the document signed by the Japanese on board the battleship Missouri:

"We hereby proclaim the unconditional surrender to the Allied Powers of the Japanese Imperial General Headquarters and of all Japanese Armed Forces and all Armed Forces under Japanese control wherever situated."

Aided by reptile alien forces, this ancient army is no doubt still hiding out in China! LOL

[zboy1]

Japan is basically occupied territory for American imperialists--with thousands of U.S. soldiers stationed in the country; so, how can you say that Japan won the war? That's ridiculous.

BTW, those soldiers cause an incredible amount of crime, rape, and violence in the country. Wherever U.S. soldiers are present in the world, those vices usually follow (no offense to any good, decent American currently serving or has served in the military). I know there are a lot of good people in the U.S military (I've met many while I was in the service), but the minority really screw it for everyone with their typical, lousy and obnoxious 'Ugly American' behavior.

[Winston]

Any links or sources for that theory? It doesn't make sense. If Japan didn't lose, then why did it pull out of China? Why did the Japanese Empire end?

Japan was really stupid though. It might have kept its empire longer if it hadn't brought the US into the war by attacking Pearl Harbor. The US might not have entered WWII at all if they hadn't done that. There was nothing to gain by going to war with America and everything to lose. It was a totally illogical and foolish decision to bring America into the war.

[OutWest]

Any links or sources for that theory? It doesn't make sense. If Japan didn't lose, then why did it pull out of China? Why did the Japanese Empire end?

Japan was really stupid though. It might have kept its empire longer if it hadn't brought the US into the war by attacking Pearl Harbor. The US might not have entered WWII at all if they hadn't done that. There was nothing to gain by going to war with America and everything to lose. It was a totally illogical and foolish decision to bring America into the war.

+1....

[gsjackson]

Any links or sources for that theory? It doesn't make sense. If Japan didn't lose, then why did it pull out of China? Why did the Japanese Empire end?

Japan was really stupid though. It might have kept its empire longer if it hadn't brought the US into the war by attacking Pearl Harbor. The US might not have entered WWII at all if they hadn't done that. There was nothing to gain by going to war with America and everything to lose. It was a totally illogical and foolish decision to bring America into the war.

Huh? You think Japan just attacked us out of the blue for no reason? Because of their occupation of China, we had put an oil embargo on Japan that was strangling them. They resolved to go to the East Indies for their oil, but felt the US would intervene militarily if they did. So, thinking war with the US inevitable, they prepared a preemptive strike. They might have negotiated something with the US by exiting China, but that scenario wouldn't involve "keeping its empire," which the US would not have permitted.

[Cornfed]

Huh? You think Japan just attacked us out of the blue for no reason? Because of their occupation of China, we had put an oil embargo on Japan that was strangling them. They resolved to go to the East Indies for their oil, but felt the US would intervene militarily if they did. So, thinking war with the US inevitable, they prepared a preemptive strike. They might have negotiated something with the US by exiting China, but that scenario wouldn't involve "keeping its empire," which the US would not have permitted.

Also, FDR had given orders for the Flying Tiger Squadron to bomb Japan, and was equipping them with aircraft to do so. The Japs may have learned of this and figured they should get the first punch in.

[Cornfed]

Japans Navy was destroyed. It was unable to defend it's shores and was conquered and occupied. My father was there. The Pacific war was not some sideshow. LOL
90% of Japans forces were intact and in China? LOL What silliness. There were obliterated.
Very very few survivors returned to Japan. In Burma and South China alone, Japanese armies
totaling about 300,000 men were wiped out.

Yes of course that is the conventional narrative. But what explains what happens next? Most countries that lose wars with Western regimes become literal banana republics. In Japan's case it was exactly the opposite. The West started selling them natural resources and technology at firesale prices. They were allowed to have trade barriers against us, but we were not allowed to have trade barriers against them. They had Deming's Total Quality Management imposed, making their industry the most efficient in the world. Hence they became filthy rich. Unlike with the Germans, most of their war criminals were never punished. Why did this happen? How is this functionally different to them defeating us in a war and then exploiting us as a colonial possession?

[momopi]

The Flying Tigers in WW2 were active in Burma & Southern China area. They were not deployed anywhere near the Japan, nor were they equipped with aircraft suitable for bombing raids on Japan. The Kurtis P-40 was a short-legged fighter (compared to Mitsubishi Zero's long legs).

[Winston]

Any links or sources for that theory? It doesn't make sense. If Japan didn't lose, then why did it pull out of China? Why did the Japanese Empire end?

Japan was really stupid though. It might have kept its empire longer if it hadn't brought the US into the war by attacking Pearl Harbor. The US might not have entered WWII at all if they hadn't done that. There was nothing to gain by going to war with America and everything to lose. It was a totally illogical and foolish decision to bring America into the war.

Huh? You think Japan just attacked us out of the blue for no reason? Because of their occupation of China, we had put an oil embargo on Japan that was strangling them. They resolved to go to the East Indies for their oil, but felt the US would intervene militarily if they did. So, thinking war with the US inevitable, they prepared a preemptive strike. They might have negotiated something with the US by exiting China, but that scenario wouldn't involve "keeping its empire," which the US would not have permitted.

So they started a war just because of an oil embargo? That sounds lame. Surely they could get around that somehow? Why didn't they just get their oil from the Middle East? Where do other countries get their oil from? Where did Nazi Germany get its oil from?

How can the US block oil shipments to Japan from every country? That seems impossible. Maybe the whole war was staged and funded by the same people on both sides, as conspiracy theorists claim?

Besides, how would starting a war with America help Japan with their lack of oil?

Instead of attacking Pearl Harbor, Japan should have invaded Eastern Russia to help Hitler out. Then the US would have stayed out of the war, and with Russia fighting both Germany and Japan, the Axis powers would have had a better chance to win.

Btw, I always thought that Japan prospered after WWII because it didn't have to spend any money on defense because the US military provided national defense for Japan? So they invested all their money into their economy. At least that's what I heard.

The US should pull its bases out of Japan and let the Japanese build up its own military again. If they did that, do you think Japan would invade the rest of Asia again and try to build up an empire again?

[momopi]

So they started a war just because of an oil embargo? That sounds lame. Surely they could get around that somehow? Why didn't they just get their oil from the Middle East? Where do other countries get their oil from? Where did Nazi Germany get its oil from?

The Middle East was not a major oil exporter in 1940.

viewtopic.php?t=20610

"In 1940 the 4 largest exporter of oil in the world was U.S., Iran, Romania, and Dutch East Indies. The US supplied Japan with 80%-93% of its oil prior to the embargo. Iran was occupied by the British and Saudi Arabia's infant oil industry was dominated by US companies. The Japanese opted to invade the Dutch East Indies for the oil."

In hindsight, the Japanese in 1943 had occupied Dutch East Indies and successfully increased oil production to 4 million barrels per month. But someone forgot to build sufficient oil tankers to transport all the oil back to Japan.

Oil was not the only vital resource the Japanese had to import. Others include steel, iron, aluminum, rubber, food, etc. No steel, no battleships. No aluminium, no airplanes. No rubber, no tires.

Btw, I always thought that Japan prospered after WWII because it didn't have to spend any money on defense because the US military provided national defense for Japan? So they invested all their money into their economy. At least that's what I heard.

Japan has the world's 5th largest military budget.

Izumo class helicopter carrier:

[gsjackson]

Any links or sources for that theory? It doesn't make sense. If Japan didn't lose, then why did it pull out of China? Why did the Japanese Empire end?

Japan was really stupid though. It might have kept its empire longer if it hadn't brought the US into the war by attacking Pearl Harbor. The US might not have entered WWII at all if they hadn't done that. There was nothing to gain by going to war with America and everything to lose. It was a totally illogical and foolish decision to bring America into the war.

Huh? You think Japan just attacked us out of the blue for no reason? Because of their occupation of China, we had put an oil embargo on Japan that was strangling them. They resolved to go to the East Indies for their oil, but felt the US would intervene militarily if they did. So, thinking war with the US inevitable, they prepared a preemptive strike. They might have negotiated something with the US by exiting China, but that scenario wouldn't involve "keeping its empire," which the US would not have permitted.

So they started a war just because of an oil embargo? That sounds lame. Surely they could get around that somehow? Why didn't they just get their oil from the Middle East? Where do other countries get their oil from? Where did Nazi Germany get its oil from?

How can the US block oil shipments to Japan from every country? That seems impossible. Maybe the whole war was staged and funded by the same people on both sides, as conspiracy theorists claim?

Besides, how would starting a war with America help Japan with their lack of oil?

Instead of attacking Pearl Harbor, Japan should have invaded Eastern Russia to help Hitler out. Then the US would have stayed out of the war, and with Russia fighting both Germany and Japan, the Axis powers would have had a better chance to win.

Btw, I always thought that Japan prospered after WWII because it didn't have to spend any money on defense because the US military provided national defense for Japan? So they invested all their money into their economy. At least that's what I heard.

The US should pull its bases out of Japan and let the Japanese build up its own military again. If they did that, do you think Japan would invade the rest of Asia again and try to build up an empire again?

What momopi said. Oil is a big deal. There's no invasion of Russia or anyplace else without it. And there are plenty of historians who think FDR was determined to get the US into the war by hook or crook.

I agree the US should shut its bases in Japan, but right now we seem determined not to let China dominate the region and are developing more of a military presence in the region.

[Cornfed]

The Flying Tigers in WW2 were active in Burma & Southern China area. They were not deployed anywhere near the Japan, nor were they equipped with aircraft suitable for bombing raids on Japan. The Kurtis P-40 was a short-legged fighter (compared to Mitsubishi Zero's long legs).

Documents declassified during the 80s indicate they were in the process of being so deployed and equipped, and it is only delays in doing so that stopped them from striking before Pearl Harbor. There have been mainstream television documentaries on this.

[Winston]

I still don't understand something though. If there was an oil embargo on Japan, then what did it hope to gain by starting a war with the US and attacking Pearl Harbor? I mean, even if Japan won WWII, how would that have helped their oil problem? If the US wasn't willing to sell oil to Japan, then what good would a war do? I don't see the logic in it.

Was the US the only exporter of oil in the world? How did Nazi Germany get oil then? Couldn't Japan get oil the same way?